Finance Committee Meeting -- Proposed Budget

[Tim OBrien]

Jody, Chuck!  I agree 100%!      We test and test and test in this country.  Sometimes, it seems that we spend more time testing and preparing for tests than we do fully exploring all the areas covered in our curriculum.   Less testing, more teaching.   
Tim

[Pat Garaffa]

Gene,

Sleep in today?  We missed you at the breakfast. 

[Gene_Tanala]

Hi Pat:

Actually my dog lucy, 7yrs, has lymphoma, and is critical. We are trying to make her comfortable until Monday...................my wife and I were pretty upset about this circumstance.............wish I did sleep in.

I have 2 dogs and 2 cats indoors, and 2 strays outside. My wife is an animal lover as am I

sorry guys


gene

[Chuck Welsh]

Anyway, the only thing I hate is mediocrity but it appears I am in the minority.

KB

Kathy,
I dislike mediocrity when I am paying for excellence.    
The primary difference between the public sector and the private sector is the absence of choice.  Private sector competition fuels innovation and the pursuit of excellence.   It is not the fault of the public sector employee.  Many still strive for excellence in their careers.   Sadly, the system in the public sector is not set up to encourage the pursuit of excellence.
Tim O.

Using competition to improve schools is inappropriate, and would be counterproductive. The business model works for business because success can be easily quantified and the managers have complete control over all of the factors of production. If a manufacturer of widgets is having a quality issue with a certain part, he/she can simply fire the vendor and find another that will provide a satisfactory piece.

This is not, nor should it be, appropriate for education because we are dealing with human beings, and all of their complexities and not widgets. Success is not as easily quantified as some would have you think because the teaching/learning process deals with variables that go far beyond the range of school control. Not only are their innate differences in learners, but we also know that the home environment plays a huge role is whether or not kids achieve success in school.

Imagine a wide-open system that allowed parents to place their children in a school they chose (for the sake of focus we'll assume that athletic advantage, racial prejudice and social concerns do not play a part in the choice—a huge assumption, by the way). School A is located in an urban area with a decaying infrastructure, high crime and heavy unemployment. School B is a suburban school, well-maintained, and in an area of middle to high income families. The media have determined that School A is a failing school, based on test scores, and School B is enjoying its status as one of the top institutions in the region.

Using a competitive model, and following the argument in its favor to its logical conclusion, some parents of School A would likely transfer their kids to School B. Now, answer a few questions: Who determines which of the kids from School A would be accepted into School B? How long will School B enjoy success once it starts to admit kids who are at risk because of economic disadvantage, an social upbringing in an environment of poverty, or language barriers? Once School B starts to falter (once again, based on the inaccurate measure of test scores) where will the kids go next?

Competition seems a simple fix for solving education's problems, but the outcome of using a competitive environment to encourage improvement could have exactly the opposite effect.

[Tim OBrien]

Competition seems a simple fix for solving education's problems, but the outcome of using a competitive environment to encourage improvement could have exactly the opposite effect.

Chuck,
I agree it is not simple.  I did not say we should throw out the public school model.
Many of the problems seem to stem from an explosion in regulations and Federal and State mandated policies that often complicate the delivery of education.  You have a tremendous amount of experience as an educator and school administrator.   Can you think of some obvious fixes to the existing system that would enhance educational quality?
Respectfully,
Tim

[Chuck Welsh]

Competition seems a simple fix for solving education's problems, but the outcome of using a competitive environment to encourage improvement could have exactly the opposite effect.

Chuck,
I agree it is not simple.  I did not say we should throw out the public school model.
Many of the problems seem to stem from an explosion in regulations and Federal and State mandated policies that often complicate the delivery of education.  You have a tremendous amount of experience as an educator and school administrator.   Can you think of some obvious fixes to the existing system that would enhance educational quality?
Respectfully,
Tim

Tim,
In the current environment, it is unlikely that any progressive strategies that cost money would get past the budget hawks. So let's assume that real reforms, involving effective measures such as smaller class size, are out of the question.

 However, in order to enhance education, we could start by eliminating the average-based grading system that we now use. Rather than assign grades, teachers should provide formative feedback to students and their parents, indicating what progress students are making toward the mastery of content objectives. Think of how teacher's report on kindergarten students (“Johnny knows his colors and plays well with others”) and apply that all the way through the system.

Averages are not a true indication of student mastery as they don't really provide any authentic information about learning. Think of a student in a karate school. All students start with a white belt, and work their way toward achieving the black belt. If we applied the school model to their progress, it would be impossible to win a black belt, as the student's average would earn her a gray belt.

Another analogy involves how we award driver's licenses. Do you know of a single person who wants a license who has been denied? Why is that? Simply, because if a person fails the test, he or she takes it again, and again, and again, if necessary. The idea is not to get a “grade,” but to actually master an objective. Feedback is given along the way, and the student driver works specifically on those skills that need improvement. This is authentic, and we should endeavor to apply this kind of teaching and learning to our curricular content.

I will happily share some ideas about curricular structure and student choice later. Thanks for indulging me.

[Jeanette_Smith]

Chuck, funny you should mention this since I attended the parent academy and this was the topic of one of the workshops. But I'm sure that you know this district has a task force working on this concept.

While I agree that reporting progress towards mastery is more meaningful than grades, my concern is that we have two major barriers to this having a qualitative difference on learning experiences and outcomes for students. First, is that we still group students by age and second is that the "yardstick" (i.e. standards) are the same for all students based on their grouping.

This country needs to acknowledge the differences in "kind" discussed in "Real Education". I don't see that happening anytime soon given the movement towards national standards.

[Chuck Welsh]

Jeanette, you and I are on the same page regarding this issue. Yes, the district has a committee working on the "report card," (I was a member), but there is no reason to believe that anything revolutionary will come out of its work. Moving teachers away from the the idea of "averaging" will be a most difficult challenge. Some change, however, may result. Unfortunately, changing "the way we always did it" takes more time than it should.

Grades, averages, class rank and state assessments, for the most part, are factors that turn kids off to real learning. One of the great ironies of education today is that some of the most progressive and exclusive private schools have either eliminated or never implemented these measures. Tim is right, part of the problem comes from politicians who are completely ignorant of the teaching/learning process.

[Gene_Tanala]

FYI

Congress, President OK School Jobs Bill
New Jersey is expected to receive $268 million through the Education Jobs Fund Amendment approved by the U.S. House of Representatives and signed into law on Tuesday.


Address of the entire approved Bill

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h1586eas2.txt.pdf

Gene Tanala