When did having opposing opinions give people the right to act this way?

[Michele_bell]

What the heck has happened to respecting each other, even when people are on opposite sides the spectrum.  A friend of mine was commenting on FB about all the budgets that got defeated last night. She is a teacher, I am not. We have NEVER had a problem discussing these issues.

When I commented that I was hoping that the cuts coming to Howell would be fiscally responsible and truly in the best interest of the children, a friend of hers blasted me.  I have no problem with someone disagreeing with my opinions, however, she does not know me. Regardless of her lack of information about me, she had absolutely no problem calling me uninformed, naive, ignorant and one of the reason the "general public should have very limited input into the education systems".  

Her rant was so despicable that my friend who originally started our conversation, apologized to me for her.  Her "friend" then blasted her for apologizing......

When did having opposing opinions give people the right to act this way?

[Joe Parente]

Nothing gives them the right, Michele. But this kind of "discourse" is encouraged by the media. If you listen to any one of Rush, Hannity, Levin et al or watch Fox at night, you'll see that they have no problems calling people they disagree with names.

IMHO, the powers that be have engineered this attitude, to keep us at each others throats so we don't get together, realize that our common enemy is them and go after them, rather than each other.   

[Jody_Branin]

I think the whole Facebook/Myspace genre encourages that kind of nonsense. 

Michele, the comments about you being "uninformed, naive, ignorant and one of the reason the "general public should have very limited input into the education systems" tells me your post hit a nerve - a big one.  That person needs to look hard in the mirror and I pray she doesn't teach children.  Don't let it upset you Michele - it's just spewing due to a boat load of stress.  That and a bit of an "I didn't get my way" tantrum.
   
There are a whole lot of people that are on the chopping block and tempers are flaring.  Some people have been protected by the unions for a very long time.  I don't think they realize that we in the real world are experiencing the same feelings.  Nobody’s job is safe any more.

[Thomas Jennings Jr.]

I would agree on just about all accounts. People do see the way others are treated on those television "news" shows and feel its okay to do.

Also, the changing culture of the 21st century is definitely an influence. Kids feel they can do and say whatever they want on facebook and myspace. They feel that because they aren't saying directly to someone in person, it won't have the same consequences. It does. Same applies to adults.

Anything somebody puts up there is fair game. Same with message boards as this one...
Looking for a job? Better not have pics up from last nights rave, or any questionable t-shirts, comments, quotes, etc. Companies and universities are starting to look at those sorts of things.

You're comment does not seem the least bit inflammatory. Your friend knew this which is why she apologized for the other person. Perhaps they are just acquaintances themselves?

While it could have resulted in further discussion of your varying opinions, the person was clearly wrong in their taking things to a more juvenile, name-calling level. Even politicians wait more than a sentence.

[Pat Garaffa]

I agree to an extent.   But not so much with FOX or a few of the radio guys.  I often find myself thinking the same thing when I am talking with someone who’s opinion just came down from Mars.   Maybe I'll renew my commitment and I’ll try to be nicer if they try to be smarter! 

Not everyone (myself included) is capable of making every decision.  And I know my limitations.  And I’m smart enough to know when to ask others for help.  But some of the opinions I hear are so outrageous that they defy logic. 

Look at the principal last week who sent kids home for wearing and American flag t-shirt?  Or the government worker who tried to stop some senior citizens from saying “grace” before their meals because the government is subsidizing the food. 

I would call these people out too and I wouldn’t mince words – these people are truly the definition of IDIOTS and FOX would do us a service by calling them out on their absurd, selfish, moronic behaviors!   

Regarding Facebook, or any social network: they all seem to make people less sociable but to a larger group.  They traded quality for quantity.  They all want to have 1000 friends including their mailman from 30 years ago.  But they spend so much time on the computer that they never have any real time to actually be sociable on a traditional level.   

Personally, I would rather be more sociable to a smaller, manageable group.  And skip the Facebook crap completely and have my "friends" over for dinner.  Or a card game?  Or a BBQ?   

Regarding Michele’s situation, I've also seen many who have been brainwashed into thinking that anything done "in the best interests of the children" needs to have a price tag attached to it.  Or an unlimited source of income.  And the expenses should NEVER be challenged! We should sell the farm and give it to the school system.  And when that is disputed (as in the example above) then someone bites your head off!

Anytime an expense is challenged, it is always turned into a debate about what is best for the kids.  Give me a break!  EVERYONE wants what is best for the kids and that includes a roof over their heads and 3 squares each day.  There must be a check and balance and some of these brainwashed,  Manchurian Candidate teachers and parents need to get out from under a rock and understand that there is only so much money to go around. 

What good is a system where the school has unchecked expenses (too much of everything) and taxes are so high that mom and dad are working non-stop to pay them? 

Ask your friend if that is “in the best interests of a child?” 

Yes – he can do quantitative physics in 7rd grade but he comes home to an empty house every day?  And sits on the computer with his Facebook friends?  It seems we reap what we sow and what goes around – comes around!  Maybe we should just put the instruction on Facebook and be done with it?   

Thomas Jefferson didn’t have a guidance counselor.  Ben Franklin didn’t have a school nurse.  Or a principal, a vice principal and an army of expensive administrators and faculty roaming the halls all trying to do what is “best for the child” while bankrupting the state at the same time.   

Sometimes spending less IS in the best interest of the child. 

[Thomas Jennings Jr.]

Put instruction on facebook? No school nurse? No guidance counselors? Sometimes less is better for the child?

Do you honestly think any of those ideas are feasible, rational, or in anyway solve anything?

Do you know how many more lawsuits there would be? Those are fine ideas. If every parent signs a waiver for there students well being.

Its not 1776. We aren't going to get 1776 taxes.

[Pat Garaffa]

Tom,

"Instruction on Facebook"? 

Not on Facebook but how many colleges are giving on-line instruction?  Lots of homework and research is already done there by my kids so why not consider it as a cost savings option for electives for seniors? 

"Sometimes less is better for the child?

Yes - less taxes means less income needs and more time that the parent is home with the kids.  Think "June and Ward Cleaver" but without the pearls. 

Regarding some of the other stuff, of course I'm not being real here and just giving a silly example.  

But think out of the box and turn off the union propaganda - our founding fathers survived fine without any of this crap and they all turned out better than the kids are turning out today.  So is all this stuff really helping?  Or are the excessive costs of unnecessary items hurting us?  In the case of taxes - you already know the answer. 

I said earlier there needs to be some give and take.  Keep the part time nurse but stop paying a full time salary.  And I doubt any lawsuits would pop up as a result of a missing guidance counselor.  Or an assistant media specialist either.   And do we really need so many school districts, principals and supers?  

The answer is "no" and it's being done fine in many other states where they have much, much less of everything yet the teacher student ratios are about the same.  

So what does that mean?  Too much administration - period!   Let's get back to basics.  If they don't directly interface with the kids then let them go interface with the unemployment office.  

[Thomas Jennings Jr.]

I agree with you on many of your points there.

The problem I have with online- learning is this. I know a student who said to me that they learned how to play piano by themselves. I was quite impressed. I said How did you do this? She said I can play ....and then named a few songs...I was even more impressed. She said she taught herself online by watching a youtube video. She then said "Yeah the person playing shows you exactly what buttons to hit and after I practice it a few times, Ive got the hang of it". After talking more, it was clear she had no idea what notes she was hitting, any of the theory behind music, or even that the "buttons" were properly called keys. It still needs to be backed up by a teacher. Rosetta Stone doesn't replace a spanish teacher.

Parents taking an active role in student learning, and following up at home, is definitely important. I can see how working longer hours or overtime would affect that.  I dont necessarily think that higher taxes are the only factor in determining longer work days. But, there is inherently a trade off. Having parents home more could definitely improve test scores and homework and a range of other skills, if the parents choose to put that time into doing those things. However, school nurses and guidance counselors are not new things. I'm sure they were around when you were around in high school and maybe even middle school. They provide definite services to the community. Would you want to visit the ER for a student getting a bump on the head? The school will have to cover themselves and it will translate to ER bills (just for being seen) and pickups from hospitals instead of a school nurse. Also, nurses and guidance counselors deal with very serious issues. A student suffering from abuse,drug, or alcohol abuse are examined and counseled by both parties in addition to outside sources. Your taxes will not go down from cutting a nurse, or six nurses, or ten nurses. You will see at best, a few cents difference per year with a lot of extra hassle.  Also, High school guidance counselors prepare students by reviewing their test scores, achievments, entrance exams, applications, resumes, scholarships, financial aid etc. Sure, this might not affect a wealthy person whose child is a genious and can handle all of these things on their own....but the vast majority of high school students are not....regardless of what their parent says. And in a student who comes from a lower income family, they may not have anyone who went through the process before to ask about.

The place I most agree with you is to cut administration. Not necessarily people who don't deal with students, I think the schools need a security guard, a nurse, a media specialist, and cust odians.etc. But there are administrative assistants,  assistant superintendents, superintendents. It definitely needs to be consolidated but those are the people making the cuts!!!

[Pat Garaffa]

Tom,

I've seen the same type of music instruction packaged on DVD, books, etc.  They learn to play a song but couldn't read music, comprehend theory, understand chords & notes, scales, etc.  All they did was memorize the order in which you hit those “buttons” or pluck strings.  Why bother?  

It probably serves a purpose if it gets someone intrested in playing and learning.  The real instruction can happen later.  But if that's all they want to do they should stick with the tambourine.  Or an air guitar.  Or better, go play a radio.  

The internet instruction I suggested would be for “seniors only” and for “electives only.” Maybe a 1 credit course for serious knowledge and instruction in personal finance?  Something every kid on the planet lacks?  But you are right and that was probably a stretch.  My point was that it could be done as an option and outside of normal school hours leaving the school day for more important issues.  

Regarding the nurse, you may have misunderstood.  If you have a nurse who makes 92K for part time job, then why wouldn’t a full time nurse outside the school, who ALSO makes 92, come in and do this part time job for much less?  

She would.  I have a cousin who is an RN and makes a good buck in exchange for crazy hours.  She said she would happily take that job, with those benefits, for less than 50K with no weekends, evenings, summers off, holidays and snow days, Christmas and Easter vacations too.   In fact, I think they would be lining up at the door for many of those jobs where the salaries have grown seriously large in comparison to the private sector.  

Many make this “teacher vs private sector” comparison regarding salaries.  It’s a tough debate since we don’t have teachers in the private sector.  But we don’t have accountants in the real world who take summers off either.  

But what about the nurses, custodians, administrators, etc.?   Don’t you feel these salaries have grown large?  And if so, why doesn’t anyone believe that most everyone and everything else in the same school system experienced the same amount of abnormal growth?  Especially since the required amount of work is much less than in the private sector.  

There was an article in the Star Ledger during the week that made comparisons in the public vs private sector.  I’ll try to find it and post it here.  The article was discussed on a radio show and they talked about the 110,000 jobs lost in the private sector yet 11,000 jobs were added to the public sector.  They also talked about the New Jersey schools and stated that overall enrollment increased 3% last year yet expenses increased 16%.  How could this be?    

Many of these salaries have grown above and beyond what is needed at the school and they can be seriously cut back.  Teachers aren’t the only group who enjoy summers off and there are many nurses who would like that too.   The same with custodians, maintenance guys and administrators as well.  They could easily be replaced with people who will work for much less in exchange for much less work.   We don’t have to pay people to sit on the beach when there is a large group who will do that for free.  

[Ray_Spengler]

I think most parents have a problem with the 600 + school districts - all with super's, assitants and the like.  MANY making more than the state head of the Dept of Education and the Governor. 

Add the fact the union is unwilling to pay for health care to some degree or try merit based increases based on job performance and $ availability from tax payers/state when everyone else paying most of this expense has to follow these rules.

It seems the union is unwilling to do anything.  I wonder how the union leadership feels about those few districts super's, assistants and other union workers that took a pay freeze and now contribute to their health care.  They seemingly did it for the children.  I wonder why those districts had their budgets passed by the voters.  Seemingly they passed it for the children. 

I think that says something about the fact voters really do care about education.  If both sides give a little, the children would be better off.  If the union is unwilling to do anything or consider anything, the state will run out of $, the voters will never pass a budget and the "its all for the children" phrase will bring on a whole new meaning.

What happens when the state runs out of $ and can not sustain the status quo?  If the feds don't help (they won't) I am not sure of the answer.  If it were a private company there would have already been massive layoffs, cut backs and a reduction in spending.

Just my opinion.  Means nothing to anyone but me.

[Thomas Jennings Jr.]

Pat,
I think the "internet instruction" would only work in a few areas. Finance..might work out well. However, I caution you to including it to "electives only". Ever try learning woodshop via the internet?  Not all that productive. Sure you can look up recipes for a cooking class, but other than that actually doing things or creating things is what its all about. Internet art class? Where is the point in that? Additionally, who grades the material? There aren't many programs that take the data from the commercial programs and put it into the school's grade software. And if you pay a teacher, we are right back where we started. Without grades? Kids won't do the work. As it is, kids barely want to do the work. Think about it this way...how would you feel if someone said they could learn all they needed to know in an online 30 min course once a week about being a realtor for five months and that was adequate enough. Clearly...that is not okay. School should be more about kids doing, creating, designing, hands-on.

As far as nurses go, I do not know their starting salaries. I know they are not 92k to start. That is clearly someone with experience. Also, nurses are 12 month employees (well, really 11 month with 4 weeks vacation). Who is in the school doing summer physicals, organizing forms, and notifying parents for updated medical information.

I agree with Mr. Spengler. the parents - and many teachers- have a problem with the 600+ school districts, all the super's, assistants, etc and how much they make.

Is the union unwilling to pay for healthcare? NO. They are unwilling to break their contract. They have a legally binding contract that will expire. Upon its expiration, the 1.5% will apply at the very least.  The problem with opening a contract is that it opens up everything - it could mean a longer school day, more paperwork, more meetings, a lesser salary, etc etc. Would YOU open up a binding contract which you still had 2-4 yrs left on? I doubt it....Additionally, it is illegal for the BOE to have an agreement with the union stating that it would bring back teachers if they took a pay freeze. Therefore, there is nothing saying that the BOE's of Howell and the FRHSD won't put that money towards sports or supervisors or more admins and cut just as many teachers.

I saw a link http://www.app.com/article/20100515/NEWS/5150323/1004/NEWS01/Colts-Neck-officials-plan-vote-on-regional-budget

Colts neck is looking to accept Superintendent Wasser's 2.65 million offering. I think THAT is the right thing to do. 4.5 million is excessive, and zero would be wrong. I think 2.65 million..even 3.0 would get the job done that most taxpayers are looking for without completely killing the programs kids do love. I hope Howell is smart enough to follow suit.

So again I say, make sports pay-to-play, cut admins, consolidate schools, remove failing abbott districts, etc. etc. But if you cut teachers, you might as well keep them home.

[Barry_Jacobson]

Colts neck is looking to accept Superintendent Wasser's 2.65 million offering. I think THAT is the right thing to do. 4.5 million is excessive, and zero would be wrong. I think 2.65 million..even 3.0 would get the job done that most taxpayers are looking for without completely killing the programs kids do love. I hope Howell is smart enough to follow suit.

This is the way it works. The BOE has to  aggree to the dollar cut by the towns. The BOE cannot pick and choose which town's cuts they agree to.   If all towns do not agree to the same dollar amount of a  cut (and three town's governing bodies have already voted for 4.5 million) then it all goes to Schundler to decide and he could cut from nothing to more than the 4.5 million.