What would you want to see to support next year's budget?

[Tim OBrien]

Folks,
Just curious.  I would like some sober and thoughtful feedback from the members of this online community.  What would you want to see over the next 10 months to bring you to the polls in support of the school budget for the 2011-2012 school year?  
Tim O.

[Phil_Sanfilippo]

Tim,
       In my opinion I could not offer anything at this early stage until I have supporting data that  would justify anytype of tax increase. A flat budget should not be entirely ruled out, however the BOE would have to strongly show  the voters why they should support any increase in taxes when close to 10 in 100 are out of work, and most folks working and retired are not seeing any type of increase either in their monthly income  pensions, while cost keep rising.For far to many years even though the  majority of budgets were voted down it did not even come to being flat with the council cuts. The Howell School system as seen some good salary and benefits increases these past years. The only way I can see the voters approving any type of increase is if the BOE goes all out with some informational briefings justifying it in these hard times. I will reserve my recomendations for a later date until I have more data. Perhaps you may want to join us for a beer or cup of coffee.
                                                thanks for being pro-active.
                                                Keep up the good work
                                               Phil
                                                       

[Ginger_Hoffmeier]

Perhaps if teachers, principals, vice-principals and superintendents gave up all raises for about three years, and paid at least 5% of their healthcare I would vote for it.

They might make it up by asking the union for lower dues. (The union can make it up by giving up costly TV commercials.)

Frankly, if the teachers went on strike and were fired instead of giving anything back we wouldn't suffer at all. There is no shortage of excellent, experienced teachers willing to work for less and more fresh, new ones graduate every year.

I think that the union's unrealistic view of reality is the main problem but the teachers need to be part of the solution.

[Ginger_Hoffmeier]

Tim... Tim? Where are you?

I'm beginning to think "sober and thoughtful feedback" means comments only from those who agree with you.

The cost saving suggestions I made are worth considering. We need some drastic measures. Everything should be on the table.

In the attempt to keep climbing higher on the "payscale  tree" our educators are going out on thinner and thinner limbs. Why is this so hard to see? A refusal to face reality or a lack of logic?

How about the unions backing a plan to fund education through income and sales taxes?

[Phil_Sanfilippo]

Based on all the post's I guess folks are pretty satisfied with the way things are going.
                                                   phil

[James_Obrien]

Perhaps if teachers, principals, vice-principals and superintendents gave up all raises for about three years, and paid at least 5% of their healthcare I would vote for it.

They might make it up by asking the union for lower dues. (The union can make it up by giving up costly TV commercials.)

Frankly, if the teachers went on strike and were fired instead of giving anything back we wouldn't suffer at all. There is no shortage of excellent, experienced teachers willing to work for less and more fresh, new ones graduate every year.

I think that the union's unrealistic view of reality is the main problem but the teachers need to be part of the solution.

Under the agreement reached this week with the HTEA and the Board the all district employees will pay at least 5% of the cost of their health care. Those at the top of the guide will pay up to 10% of the cost.

If you think any School District could operate with all first year teachers and maintain the excellence that we expect then you need to spend more time in the schools and less time in front of your key board.

The teachers clearly are trying to be part of the solution. The Town Council is the group the picked up their marbles and went home. They couldn’t have things their way so they quite. They are part of the problem in this town. No they are the problem in this town!

For years we failed to support education in this town. You cannot vote for new schools and lower class size and then vote no for school budgets. When you do you get Howell Township.

[Ginger_Hoffmeier]

They need to give up raises too, James. At least until the economy recovers.

The ever-rising cost of education is due to higher and higher salaries and benefits, but not because of more students, longer days, or more services offered. Considering the student population is now in decline, we are asked to pay more for less.

There are excellent teachers among new hires as well as among veterans nearing retirement. i don't think I advocated using all first year teachers. Don't put words in my mouth.

There are also some very bad teachers in both categories. The difference is that a new teacher not living up to expectations can be replaced. An older teacher who might be suffering from burnout, or not keeping up with technology still gets rewarded with that huge salary bump -- and cannot be fired, thanks to tenure.

Why is it that teachers, through their union, will not lobby Trenton to find another method of funding education? They have they have the numbers and money to do so. Why is it that they defend tenure? How is it that they still believe that everyone else with a college degree is earning a lot more money and not working as hard? This is the problem not the Mayor and Council.

You think I spend too much time on the computer? I think the problem is that too many educators still cannot use a computer and are hopelessly out of date. They need to get out of the classrooms and work in the real world, with a real salary, hours and benefits.

I'm not so sure we have "excellent" schools. This is what educators tell each other and realtors tell buyers. It's what parents with kids still in school need to believe or they couldn't leave their kids there for hours. It depends a lot on the teacher assigned to your child.

We have seen children who went from the honor roll to a failing grade in the course of one year because of an inept teacher. We have had to correct the spelling and punctuation on notes sent home by various teachers, waited weeks for a return phone call or email, and had hours of homework assigned nightly. We watched as a teacher humiliated a child just to entertain the other kids present.

On the other hand, we have seen teachers who have inspired a child to learn, awakened her curiosity, and pulled the class together to work as a team. We deserve a system where every child is assured of being assigned a competent teacher every year. That would mean eliminating tenure, and evaluate the teacher's performance in the classroom just as we do our children's.

For what we pay there should be no bad teachers, and no child should be forced to spend a year in the classroom with one.

More money isn't going to make our schools better. It's just going to lead to demands of more money -- and that veiled threat that our kids will suffer if we don't give in.

It's time for the state to make some drastic changes.

[Phil_Sanfilippo]

Look at the Abbot districts.
                                    phil

[Tim OBrien]

Thanks to all for your posts.   I appreciate it.  It would be great if everyone who has thought about this issue would post and share their perspective on this.  A thread like this is one way to help me understand some of the key concerns our community members have.  
For this particular topic, I am in "receiver" mode.  I want to listen and learn.  I have also received emails from folks who saw or heard of this post over the last week.    
I am here reading and thinking about what you are all posting and emailing.  
 
We have  a certain amount of dollars to work with.   Families sometimes have trouble agreeing on a budget with just two adults in the conversation.  Our Howell family has quite a few more than that in this conversation.  So everyone needs to be heard if they are willing to participate.  This online community is one part of the conversation.  There are others.   By listening, I seek to understand.  So have at it here.  Get a vigorous and thoughtful debate going.  It has value.  
Thanks,
Tim O.

[Ray_Spengler]

Since I have been a part of this forum (when Marty owned it), there has been countless threads about this topic.

[Phil_Sanfilippo]

Thanks Tim,
                  Watch what you ask for. We are a chosen few. To bad no one gives us any credibility. I believe you will soon be getting an ear full and although some of our views my be some what controversial like my spelling we all only want what is best for Howell.
                                                                      Phil

[Al_Miller]

Jamie
not sure where you heard 5% paid to their health insurance. The HTEA agreement posted online says a 1.5% contribution to Health Insurance.

Tim
Parents want to see less programs cut and taken away from the students. Such as Sports, Extracurricular Activities and etc. Why vote for a budget that is taking away from our children. Either way we will lose the programs so instead parents vote No hoping the Council makes big cuts. The public knows even if a Budget passes we could lose the program the following year. Such as when a school was first threaten to close the budget passed then the following year the BOE closed a school anyway. The BOE needs to be honest and gain the Public's trust before any budgets get approve.  Just my opinion.

[Thomas Jennings Jr.]

I will continue to support the budget as long as it is not an outrageous increase. This year the overall budget was less than last years (at least in the FRHSD it was). Yet people still voted it down because 1) the governor told them to and 2) its the only budget they can take out their anger on.

The cost of education is higher for a variety of reasons. Sure it has gone up if we are comparing it to numbers from 1978. Income has gone up across the board since then too. So has the cost of everything else. But also, one of the very things that was cited for teachers needing to improve upon: familiarizing themselves with technology is what has become so costly. In addition to having to protect themselves against every possible situation and liability, schools now have had to keep up with technology (read as $$$) and teach their staff how to use it (read as more $$$). Computers aren't cheap, neither are LCD projectors, or the network infrastructure to be able to access the internet. Nor are the upgrades/vandalism repair that inevitably occurs. In this 21st century world, students are no longer captivated by overheads, chalkboards, or film strips shown on a slide projector. They have had instant gratification since their infancy! I know of many districts where the teachers use computers on a daily basis for grades, attendance, and displaying interactive media for presenation to the students.

Let me make this next point very clear. Read it slowly. Tenure does NOT mean a job for life. Tenure guarantees that a teacher is fired only for just causes. When nontenured, an administrator can come up to you any day of the week and say "hey, you're gone. I don't like you." When there is rampant nepotism and politicking, tenure balances it out. Would you want a superintendents child to get a job over someone who is more qualified, simply because they were related? Do you think things wouldn't happen where an administrator wouldn't say to a principal "Fire Mr. XYZ, so we can hire my nephew"? Or how about this scenario....Johnny plays football, he is the captain, yet does no school work. The team is about to go to the state champhionships for the first time in 32 years. Johnny is failing math. If there is no tenure, does this principal go to apply some pressure to the math teacher so Johnny can play? It is in the best interest of the school and community after all....or is it? I'm sure it would go on more so than it does already. Maybe the problem isn't that teachers need to get out into the "real world" (as I know many who have left those jobs because they hated it, and have said many of the perks there often outweigh those in the public sector). Maybe those in the private sector should come get a lesson in what really goes on in schools in this day and age.

If anyone is not so sure that we have excellent schools, maybe they should call up in September and see if they can set up a guided tour. If you knew what went on inside of them, you might be more convinced. Personally, I think many people who don't have children or have children who have graduated are just looking to see their their bills decrease, but they don't have the gall to say "I don't care about the kids, I just hate paying so much when my kids aren't in it anymore" Maybe they oughta lobby Trenton.

One last thing, in life you don't always get along with people. The same is true with students and teachers. They need to learn to work together. Maybe that student who went from honor roll to failing, stopped trying. Maybe you're right and it was the teacher. We don't know both sides of the story. Maybe the teacher was quickly writing out a note that the student was asking for at the last possible minute after the bell rang. Maybe the teacher is inept. We don't know both sides of the story. And if it was a student who you have a close personal relationship with, maybe you weren't willing to admit they might have been in the wrong. So many people think their kid is the next big thing, and he or she wouldn't do this or that, and that when something doesn't go as expected "There is hell to pay". The so-called helicopter parents. Maybe if things were like the old days, where the teacher said "Jimmy has a C, he's been slacking" and Mom and Dad went and grounded him until grades improved (and stuck to it)...maybe things would be different. Since the advent of internet shorthand and text messaging, there are those among us who are very smart, well educated people (not naming names) who have issues with typing, spelling, and grammar.

Al,
That doesn't quite make sense...lets vote no to the budget so the town and state cuts more...and then hope they keep extracurriculars? Good luck with that...
Maybe they should cut MORE extracurriculars since there isn't money anywhere else, and then when the public feels they want it back they can try voting for a budget.

[James_Obrien]

Jamie
not sure where you heard 5% paid to their health insurance. The HTEA agreement posted online says a 1.5% contribution to Health Insurance.

Tim
Parents want to see less programs cut and taken away from the students. Such as Sports, Extracurricular Activities and etc. Why vote for a budget that is taking away from our children. Either way we will lose the programs so instead parents vote No hoping the Council makes big cuts. The public knows even if a Budget passes we could lose the program the following year. Such as when a school was first threaten to close the budget passed then the following year the BOE closed a school anyway. The BOE needs to be honest and gain the Public's trust before any budgets get approve.  Just my opinion.

Al,

That number is 1.5% of thier salary or on average 5% of the cost of thier healthcare. For those at the top it is 10%.

[Al_Miller]

Tom
When a Budget is first presented before any vote taking away Sports, Extracurricular Activities,  Coursety Bussing and etc. Yes the Public feels why vote on something that is just taking from my child. Add on top of that the cuts to staff proposed is from the bottom of the chain and none from Central Administration still makes it hard to pass that budget. Parents once again see it as taking what is going to directly affect their child on a daily basis.  So parents come out upset so the BOE instructs Administration to restore Sports & Extracurricular Activities.  Well most Parents know that they are doing this to get their budget passed and next year they are going to cut them anyway. As far as passing a budget to get them back. A member of Administration  had said in the past once it is gone its gone even if budgets get passed. Now that Sports & Extracurriculars are gone it is going to be interesting on what else they will cut next year. Maybe another school?? Being on the PTA over the past few years as well as this year I hear a lot from parents and this is what the majority say stop cutting from the children or budgets will never get passed.