You get what you pay for

[Jody_Branin]

You get what you pay for - it's not always true.

An Engineering student I know  created this map for a final project using mostly data from Collegeboard.com.  I found it interesting and wanted to share.  Although the colors are nice  it doesn't paint a pretty picture for those that spend the most on education.

[Pat Garaffa]

Nothing new here.  If that was the case, every kid in an Abbott district would head directly to the Ivy league. 

[Thomas Jennings Jr.]

I would also have to say there must be amiddle road...at some point of paying less and less education is ruined as well.

I think the same probably applies in colleges too. They're all expensive now. You're not getting what you pay for in some cases there. People go to college and pay thirty thousand a year over four years for a twenty five thousand dollar a year job.

[Jeanette_Smith]

Jody . . . love the maps. Do you know the data year because it isn't on the graphic? Did the student get points taken off the final grade for that? lol

[Jody_Branin]

I did ask him for sources and in typical ADHD fashion he has misplaced that part of the report.  The data was not current and up to the minute - I think he said it was a couple of years old but for the most part he used Collegeboard to obtain the data.  Consider it a "guideline" - it is not exact.

I know he got an A but not sure what the Professor was looking for - most likely just using data to apply and create the map. 

The kid is still cleaning his room out, if he finds the data source portion I will post it.

[Joe_Tipaldo]

Dont know if there is a middle ground here. it's like trying to hard to find some good in these numbers and ignoring the bad. U also can't really compare the costs of elementary and high school education to the costs of going to college. Elementary and HS education is supposed to supply the basis of our knowledge. Our math, reading, speaking, logic, thinking skills are all built up in those early years of education. It's that education that makes college a possiblity for us.

what these numbers show us is that you can't keep throwing good money into bad situations. We have good teachers, but an education system that can use some massive improvements. Constantly having the highest costs in the nation isnt helping anything or anyone. At these costs, we should all have Ivy leagers in our schools. we are not getting value for our money. most of the money goes toward personnel costs (and not just salaries either), not programs or curriculums. We keep throwing money to the same people, but the numbers aren't improving all that much, if at all.

The system is broke but we have become comfortable with it.

[Pat Garaffa]

"The system is broke but we have become comfortable with it."

I agree.  We are overly comfortable!  Apathy is rampant amongst the masses.  The slow degrading or dismantling of everything in our lives makes adjusting to them more tolerable.    But it doesn't make it right.

What we had last year is not too different than what we have this year so nobody notices. And worse - no one cares.   

It's like the big rock in the middle of the stream and it takes decades to wear it down to a pebble.  No one notices the small difference each year.  But look at that rock 50 years ago and compare it to that same smaller rock today and you'll ask "where did it go?"  

When do we finally stand up and compare what we once had to what we have today?  And then start to scream?  

[Chuck Welsh]

Since the cost of living varies tremendously by region in the US, wouldn't the data be skewed? Theoretically, it would cost more to provide the same service in New Jersey as compared to Montana.

[Joe_Tipaldo]

shouldn't cost $10,000 per student per year to feed them lunch (in the abbot districts). No matter where u live. getting paid for all the sick time u didnt take (pretty much unlimited) when u retire is a cost that is not based on geography. although now i think that will be capped at $15,000. Still too much money. There are other examples like this. Free healthcare benefits. Although now it may turn out to be 1.5 %. still way too little. Again, this isn;t georaphy dependent. its what we allwoed to be negotiated into the contracts. These are all part of the highest percentage of the education costs in NJ - personnel costs. And lets not forget the OT some school bus drivers were getting for cell-phone battery charging. Oh, and the $64,0000 coffee bar in Old Bridge HS. None of these things are related to living in the NE.

Salaries on the other hand should be related to where u live. No doubt. But i read that some teachers will be gettign 3.7% raises, whcih i think is a bit higher than th cost of living. I have no issues with teacher's salaries per se. but do have issues with things like steps, the amount of raises some get in a year, the fact that raises are not merit based, free benefits; paid out sick days yada yada yada. Stipends for teachers who particiapte in afterschool activites like tutoring, debate teams, etc. They are already gettign paid. these activities s/b part of their jobs. From what i understand, some teachers have tried to volunteer for these things, but they are forced to back down from volunteering.

[Pat Garaffa]

The 15K is probably the new limit at retirement.  But what about pre-retirement?  Why wait?  Beat the system and take the sick pay now.  

I was recently told that Enid Golden's unused sicktime was just bought back by the Howell district at a cost of nearly $240,000.00.  A nice windfall for her if it's true.  

Can anyone clarify this?  We have board reps that post here regularly - how about the details?  Is this true or just another rumor? 

 

[Chuck Welsh]

shouldn't cost $10,000 per student per year to feed them lunch (in the abbot districts). No matter where u live. getting paid for all the sick time u didnt take (pretty much unlimited) when u retire is a cost that is not based on geography. although now i think that will be capped at $15,000. Still too much money. There are other examples like this. Free healthcare benefits. Although now it may turn out to be 1.5 %. still way too little. Again, this isn;t georaphy dependent. its what we allwoed to be negotiated into the contracts. These are all part of the highest percentage of the education costs in NJ - personnel costs. And lets not forget the OT some school bus drivers were getting for cell-phone battery charging. Oh, and the $64,0000 coffee bar in Old Bridge HS. None of these things are related to living in the NE.

Salaries on the other hand should be related to where u live. No doubt. But i read that some teachers will be gettign 3.7% raises, whcih i think is a bit higher than th cost of living. I have no issues with teacher's salaries per se. but do have issues with things like steps, the amount of raises some get in a year, the fact that raises are not merit based, free benefits; paid out sick days yada yada yada. Stipends for teachers who particiapte in afterschool activites like tutoring, debate teams, etc. They are already gettign paid. these activities s/b part of their jobs. From what i understand, some teachers have tried to volunteer for these things, but they are forced to back down from volunteering.

Should we assume, then, that these abuses do not occur in Utah?

[Joe_Tipaldo]

OMG! If true....someone sent me this line:

"If you total all of the fees (the BOE will be charging) and multiply them by the minimum participants for each fee-based program, the total collected by the BOE will be $450,000".

Hmmm...more than enough to cover that sicktime payout, if true.

[Joe_Tipaldo]

i';m sure there are abuses every where. Of course there is. but i dont care about utah  (except they provide fodder for excellent shows like "Big Love":-)).

I care about what is going on here, in NJ. where i live, where my kids will be going to school. We can only fix our own problems. The point is, for what we are gettign in return overall, the costs of NJ education should not be as high as it is. and i am sure there are states that have fewer problems/abuses than we have. But again, doesnt matter to me.

[Pat Garaffa]

As far as caps on salariies or increases, that's a joke too.  These packages will just vary in their offerings and the overall value will remain the same.  The salary will be limited to X but they'll throw in some extra sick time or added perks to make up the difference.  It all comes out in the wash and very little will change.  

Today we complain about high salaries.  In 10 years we will be asking "Why do government  employees get 10 weeks vacation, 5 weeks of sick time, 20 paid holidays and work a 6.5 hour day?  

And when did ground hogs day become a federal holiday?  

The news said the town manager in Bell California wasn't just making 787K annually and he also had 20 weeks vacation time that he collected at the end of the year.  A little forensic accounting revealed lots more hidden gems in his package.  They said "overall it was worth 1.5 million annually".  All this in a town of 38,000 residents where 17% live at or below the poverty line.    

The Police chief's package revealed a similar list of abuses and he was good for 750K annually (457K salary plus perks).  This is twice what the president makes and 4 times General McCrystals salary for commanding 110,000 troops.  Someone needs to read the fine print!

Nevermind - the people who read the fine print are also the people who write the fine print!  

[Chuck Welsh]

i';m sure there are abuses every where. Of course there is. but i dont care about utah  (except they provide fodder for excellent shows like "Big Love":-)).

I care about what is going on here, in NJ. where i live, where my kids will be going to school. We can only fix our own problems. The point is, for what we are gettign in return overall, the costs of NJ education should not be as high as it is. and i am sure there are states that have fewer problems/abuses than we have. But again, doesnt matter to me.

No offense, but the original post concerned a comparison between costs and test scores, nationally.